Free Choice? Really?

First, I'd like to say that I enjoy your show, but both of you are almost too civil toward eachother! Argue with conviction, Nate, my man, don't give an inch! First the argument by Chris that God has given us the gift of free choice and therefore we can choose to be his friend or not is somewhat problematic. That's like saying, I really want to be your friend but I'm going to leave it up to you, but if you don't become my friend, I'll kill you. You have a choice! Become my friend or be killed, I leave it up to you. It's the same as saying you can accept Jesus or burn in hell, that's a free will choice. So it is incumbent upon me to make that choice, but what if I never hear of Jesus or am not convinced, whose fault is that? I can't know for sure about anything so it's all on faith. But religion makes its own faith with consequences. Christianity holds that eternal damnation over your head in a rather juvenile way. It suggests that fear and eternal consequences are necessary to get people to believe in Jesus, otherwise why would you care? If I die and St. Peter says that I didn't believe and therefore go to hell, I'll say, well why should I have? 2/3 of the earth doesn't believe it, if you wanted me to believe, some actual proof would have helped, why all the faith and mystery, you created this world and made it all crazy and horrible and teriffic and throw me into it as a test and if I fail i burn in hell? where is the free will? if Jesus reveals himself or God reveals himself, than why would i reject him? Just because he did a bad job of showing me his existence, I have to pay forever? Who does he think he is? If Jesus believed he was the son of God than its pretty easy to die on the cross for all of man's sins, big woop. He could stick around where everyone hates him, die and go to hell, or become THE MAN, and sit in eternity at the right hand of God. hmmm let me think...... My point is this, the only reason to believe in anything is through proof and evidence and reason and logic, these don't dwell within the heart of what Christanity teaches, that is, faith in the lord Jesus Christ. If God knows everything he knows what it would take for me to believe in him, yet he chooses not to show me, if you give me the choice between hell and eternal life, i choose eternal life, but calling that free will is wrong. Also, there are plenty of Christians out there who believe in the teachings of christ but not all the supernatural stuff, they rock, and more power to them for being Christian. I think Jesus had some good things to say but if you think about it you don't need Jesus to live a good decent life. Keep the shows coming!

I think it was C.S Lewis (I could be wrong on that) that stated the jist of this:

A man told God that He didn't want fellowship with God.
God said "okay, have it your way"
The man is in hell.

As a created being, it is hard to understand God Triune Love.
Lets use a married couple and their child as a ONE family unit as way of explaining Gods trinity and reason for creating us.
God gave birth to us (creation) out of an expression of who He is (God is Love)
Just like a man and woman express love (make love) to each other and the natural consequence is children.
God was not lonely and create us because he needed someone to love. He is Love and we are a natural expression of it.
We were created us in His image so we could be like Him. He created us with a divine nature. We were perfect. We were completely satisfied. We had significance. We had a sense of belonging. We had provision without worry. We were created to be above the angels once this time on earth (pregnancy) was complete.
Problem:
Can't have light without darkness
Can't have good without evil.
Can't have Love without Free Will
Personally I think God made it pretty easy. Just had one forbidden thing.
O.K.
So we lost our Divine Nature because of one mans sin.
But we can get it back by one mans righteousness.
We lost sense of belonging, significance, provision and royal inheritance.
But we get all of it back when Jesus adopts us back as his children.
Sin is the disease that is killing us but Jesus is the antidote.
FREE WILL?
If you had a wife because of a prearranged marriage, would you know that she loves you?
You would if you let her go and she, after having complete liberty to be with
anyone, chooses to be with you.
God let us go. Gave us free will. Then pursued us to the cross.
God wants us to be sinless so we can be in His presence and experience real
Love, Joy, Peace and Ecstasy. No more counterfeits.
God does not create rules for us to follow to earn His love. That was in the Old Testament to expose our sin.
The Old Testament prophecy is that the Law Will be written on our hearts.
The bible says Jesus endured the walk to the cross because of the joy that was set before Him.
We are his Joy.
The measure of Love is the level of sacrifice.
The bible is the greatest love story ever told.
Yes, God violently provided a path to the cross. Could there have been a better way? I have no clue. I am stupid compared to God.
FREE WILL?
I choose to be Royalty in the kingdom of heaven. I choose Gods wisdom over my own. I choose to not be in bondage to counterfeit forms of happiness. I choose to have love, joy, and peace. I choose to trust God to know what is best for me.
I choose to live forever in eternal ecstasy.

It would not take so much evil as a contrast to the good.So God is not too bright! Why should we inherit orignal sin? So, God is not too bright. Why didn't He let the two know of good and evil in the first place. God is not too bright.Why would He have human sacrifice when Judaism gave up animal sacrifice long ago. God is not too bright and is a sado-masochist. Why would God cause the Deluge when there were humane ways to educate people? God is not too bright and is a psychopath.

Personally, I believe that worship is a life-style. It shows love and compassion for the one true God who exists. God is a just God. He gave adam and eve a choice in the Garden (Free Will) They chose to defy him. Now I don't think anyone would expect God to say, "Oh, that's alright, I told you not to, but I'll let you off with a warning." No, God is a just God. He gave then instructions from himself personally, I don't think God would be a fair and just God if he just said, oh just forget about it this time. He told then their choices and he told them not to do it. I believe that they knew what they were getting themselves into. God is not a crazy, He's a fair and just God.

[B][/B] A just god would have let them know of good and evil in the first place! Throwing them out only makes for might is right.And to make this sin hereditary is manifestly unjust,bespeaking a pathological god. To make the Deluge reveals a pathological god. To require ritual canabalism and vampirism and human sacrifice bespeaks the divine protection rackett- so much for soteriology! Theology tries to make reasonable the series of guesses for a series of mysteries the notion of God as an explanation,but only a pseudo-one. Christology tries to make a god out of a mere miralcle worker; saviour-gods were a dime a dozen in those times, all unique. Theodicy tries to make reasonable the negligence of God for putting so many of us in Hell on Earth with one dodge after another!

"A just god would have let them know of good and evil in the first place!"

In a way, he did let them know of good and evil. be open minded and read this.

Genesis 2:15-17 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. and the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.

He did let them know of this evil thing and they went ahead and did it anyways, and after that they hid from him. There morale niche that God put in then told them to hide because they knew what they have done was evil and wrong. But the morale niche can be talked about in our other discussion. they hid because they did know of good and evil.

That was after partaking of the fruit of the tree. Before they only knew of one impermissible thing but not they would be evil if they partook of the fruit.Why would He have that test? No, this metaphor reeks of meanness!And the punishment was wrong in the second place.Furthermore, why hand it on down? We do not need the extraneous evil; just a little wrong would contrast with the good anyway.Just one dodge after another!

well, here's the thing. God told then not to, and they did. They had the choice of eating everything in the garden except from that one tree. He did let them know of the evil. after they partook of the fruit. their eyes were open to see evil as God did. They did know of the evil. They only know the simplicity of the evil, but not of the real content of the evil. And they did know that God was their creator and defying him was evil in the first place. And guess what, God still forgave them. God let them know of the evil in his word because they didn't know, and once he told them they knew it was evil but Satan tempted them, and they failed. Then their eyes were open to all of the evil. When he told them of the evil of the tree, they knew of that specific evil. God forgave him because he is a God of unconditional love.

But that is a mere fable! Anyway,He had no right to condemn many of us to misery! The moral law applies to God.

So many theists see God as so great that anything against Him is supremely wrong such that He should do as He wants . But as Plato showed in the Euthrypo, morality is independent of Him.It is what counts, not His might! He has no right then to send anyone to Hell!
My challenge is for others to demonstrate otherwise without Bible-citing.