Show Summary, From Chris and Nate

Chris Says: We were initially created by God and (maybe) have evolved over time.

Nate Says: We all got here by chance. The complexity of our bodies and the environment has all evolved from the basics.

- - Show Site: http://www.thechristianandtheatheist.org/

It seems to me religion exists because we need a path to follow, something to believe in, or we would go crazy. Obviously not everyone needs a religion because there are many who don't believe in some god and are living just fine. Believing that I was created by someone doesn't help me any way with everyday tasks. Knowing how I got here doesn't either. Why doesn't matter either because we didn't have a choice in the matter.

You two had an adequate discussion on the subject. I would like to make a couple of comments though. First, the question seemed to be answered more in a christian/god believing sense. As in, for a christian, why did god create us. I feel the the question should have been answered/discussed more fundamentally. IE: Why did god create anything? Period.

I am an Atheist.

C & N,

This discussion seemed less philisophical than the previous podcasts. I liked the symmetry to both of your points of view, in that you both say you believe what you do (in part) because the other's belief seems so implausible to you.

I dig irony.

Quick story: Back at Iowa State, I'd talk/debate with my roomie about God, especially creation. We both recognized that physical evidence supported evolution, but the solution that "God put the evidence there with the appearance of age" rubbed both him and me the wrong way. It was, at best, an unscientific solution.

The non-answer we both settled on was that all we can do is treat and react to the physical universe as if it were monstrously old, because every physical indication points to it being that old. And we can only believe about God as we do, because that's where the evidence leads us. That is, people must react to the world given them; otherwise, one may as well postulate that the world was created five minutes ago, with our memories pre-formed and the world pre-aged.

First off, I wanted to say hello, and thanks for the podcast! I enjoyed listening to your cast, and am currently d/l the older ones to catch up.

What's nice about this format is that in a world dominated by screaming instead of discussion the two of you can sit down and have this discussion, and respect each other's view...that's becoming more and more rare.

Keep it up!

Thanks for a great discussion!

One huge misconception that your dialog left hanging out there was the idea of evolution being "random." Natural selection is anything but random. If it were random, then christians would be correct -- any productive changes over time would be vanishingly rare. Eyes, brains, etc would never have come about. But natural selection is not a random process. The organisms that leave the most offspring are not simply a random selection of the population. These organisms leave more offspring precisely because they are better fit to survive. So the population changes over time not in a random manner, but towards better fitness and survival in that environment.

It is an ingenious system for developing complexity over time. If I were an omnipotent being, I couldn't think of a better way myself

==Scott

While I really enjoyed listening to this show, and the others, and I applaud the measured and calm discussion I can’t help but feel that there is a lack of real concern here.

Nate, I agree with you that Christianity is great for some people and really makes their lives easier to live. How great would it be if the world really was as black and white as Christians believe, no wrestling with difficult grays, no uncertainty; how great to have a code to tell you how to think, behave, live – no moral dilemmas, no need to use your brain and all the while the confidence that comes with doing ‘Gods will’.

But the reality is that Christians have to make huge intellectual compromises to believe what they do, and those compromises are incredibly harming to the individuals concerned and mankind as a whole. The prevalence of creationism is just one example, two-thirds of Americans want creationism taught along side evolution – that’s like teaching that the earth could be flat or it could be round, you choose. I know which view will serve us all best in the long term.

Nate, Chris’ view of the world is disastrous and as Atheists we need to be passionate about our views and the real consequences of Christianity. Sure, let Chris believe what he likes if it helps him through the day (and I am sure it does). But lets not forget what has been done in the name of Christianity in the past (Crusades, Conquistadors, Spanish Inquisition) and will continue to do in the future (especially, when we see the evidence every day from the Bush led theocracy and the cataclysmic harm that they are inflicting on the planet, on nations and individuals.)

If American is going to progress and free itself from Christian dogma then we need to stand up and protest and evangelise our views, it’s not enough to say it’s a harmless belief system – at what ever level you look at it.

Keep up the good work guys.

I got a few comments. On the big bang and evolution in a sense. I personally believe that the world has only been around for a few thousand years and God created it. Evidence to support that is comets in our solar system are still here. Comets cannot last for more than a few thousand years because of how they decay. (If you ask a strong fundamentalist evolutionist they will tell you that an "invisible ort cloud" spits new comets into the solar system.) Also planets in our solar system have different rotations and revolution directions which would not be possible if gravity pulled our galaxy together after the big bang. And Saint Ambrose, how what evidence do you have for natural selection? We have not been able to observe natural selection in progress as long as humans have recorded information on that subject or noticed it. If you could show me some I would be very interested. And like Chris said, how would that first cell be able to multiply and create all living creatures: plants, mammals, amphibians, fish, birds. How would that one cell be made in the first place. Wabes2K I just wanted to comment that everything and everyone in the Bible are not perfect people who show us how to live perfectly, only Jesus showed us that. All people sin and unfortunately some people do murder which you have pointed out to us. But in no way does that show that is how God commands us to live. Also God has a reason for everything. Finally Wabes2K like you show us that quote from Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli the country was still founded by many christian men who mainly came over to exercise their christian religion (I do fully recognize also that some people came over to exercise other beliefs) Just some thoughts to think about and thanks Nate and Chris.

Jesusdisciple101

Who says commets were only created when the universe was created? Why couldn't they have been formed afterwards?

Here's a really classic example of natural selection: ok there are these moths in europe, and at first they are pretty much all light colored and some that are dark and they rest on light colored trees. There are these birds that eat the moths, and they can see the dark colored moths more easily so they eat the dark ones. But then, threre comes the industrial revolution and all this soot is in the air becuase they don't care too much about polution, only industrialization. The light colored trees get covered with this soot and so the black moths blend in and the light moths stand out. Then the birds eat more light ones than dark ones, the dark ones are more likely to survive to reproduce, and slowly there is a shift and there are more dark moths in the population than light moths. Natural seleciton.

Wow, i must really sound like an atheist. I'd suppose that's the way i'm leaning. Ha, i read a post about the person who says their agwishtic? That was awesome! I think I could go with agwishtic. I suppose I was brought up catholic, but we never went to church, and it was only mentioned every once in a while. These podcasts are really interesting to me; i like to hear the different opinions and try to figure out what mine are. Thanks, everybody!

~Caitlin

Caitlin I liked your moth natural selection sample. But that does not necessarily show evolution sparked it. It is just a perfect example of God's creativeness. How HE cares for his creatures and already puts the genes into them to blend in with their enviroment.

Also about the comets... If they only last a few thousand years where did the most recent ones in our solar system come from say 20,000 years ago?

'I personally believe that the world has only been around for a few thousand years and God created it. Evidence to support that is comets in our solar system are still here.' Oh jesusdisciple101, when I see comments like this is just makes me very depressed, I used to get angry, but these days I am just really sad. Especially as such views become more common and prevalent, the dark ages are indeed returning....

I could give you a thousand reasons for the earth not being a few thousand years old, but I don't expect it would make you change your mind. Scientist currently estimate the earth to be about 4/5 billion years old. But the thing about this estimate is that once apon a time, scientists a 100 years ago also thought the earth was young, but as evidence gradually accumulated the concensus changed - thats how science works - it evolves as it is tested and tested against all the evidence, new theories emerge and the best ones survive - its a bit like evolution. The thing is, we know we don't have all the answers, but the method is taking us in the right direction. And this is the same method that has given us aviation, IVF, medicines and men on the moon. It works. Conversely, the Christian view can not progress; it is stuck defending the indefensible - 'the earth is a thousand years old and natural selection doesn't exist because I haven't seen it'. That's what makes me so depressed - it just reminds me of the Church's reaction when Copernicus said the earth rotated round the sun rather than the other way round. The church scientists spent years coming up with elaborate explanations for how the sun could be rotating round the earth and match the observations rather than just accept the simplest explanation.

I have read lots of stuff on evolution, geology, astronomy AND I have read lots of the so-called science that comes out of the creationist movement. And if the creationists arguements were more convincing you know what - I would believe them, I really would. But they aren't, not by a very,very long way. I challenge any creationist to do the same and really read some of the best scientific books on the subject (with an open mind) and to see if their views hold up. As a scientist I am able to consider the possibility that the earth was created by an almighting being; as a Christian are you able to consider the possibility that it wasn't?? Only by doing so will you really be able to approach the subject with an open mind. Try it, it's incredibly liberating!!!

Simon

I respect you VERY much for your views on science, which is the right views to have. I take it I am much younger than you (I'm 15) and have not had the chance to explore science like you. But what keeps me going is I know GOD exists. I admit that I should not be so outspoken like I have on this website the past few days about my theories, but growing in GOD is something no science can measure and view. I can talk to him (praying) and feel his presence. Now I know this sounds crazy, but millions of people across the world can do this. It is amazing of prophecies in the book Isaiah predicted Jesus. (If you ask many MAJOR religions they all DO say Jesus did exist, obviously only Christianity admits him as the MESSIAH). And I understand that the way you do it is PURELY science by advancing in technology and testing new theories and I just wanted to let you know I appreciate and respect that also.

You sound like a very mature and thoughtful 15 jesusdisciple101 - and you know I think it's great that you come to a forum like this to talk - and very importantly - LISTEN. Which you, unlike so many Christians, rarely do. Keep it up. And don't be reluctant to say what you think - this stuff is important after all! Keep talking, listening, reading and testing your faith. If it's true then nothing will shake it and testing it will make it stronger. Life is a journey after all, enjoy it and the learning that you get along the way. And question, question, question all the way!

I don't very much want to discuss science here. That isn't really the goal of The Christian and the Atheist anyway. Thus, think the most interesting part of the discussion on this topic was the "why" and not the "how." Obviously, there is no "why" from the Atheistic viewpoint, so the real question here is "Hypothetically speaking, why did God create the world, and why did He create it the way He did?"

I think Chris started off on the right foot when answering this question by saying that we were created to have a personal relationship with God, but when he started with his example of Bob the coworker and George the personal friend, things started breaking down. Not that I didn't understand where he meant to go with it, but it could have been presented more clearly. It got even worse when the discussion turned to choices, Heaven/Hell, and the changes in the way things must be done from before Jesus to after Jesus. Here's my take on this:

God is love. What good is love with nobody to love and to be loved by? Sure, He had the angels, but angels don't really have free wills; God won't allow sin into Heaven because that wouldn't be much of a Heaven. (As for Lucifer, I am not certain as to where he falls into all this, but regardless of his origins, he does serve a purpose as will be explained here.) As much as God desired to love and be loved, such a thing could not begin in a Heaven where there is no choice but to obey God's commands. Love in itself is a choice to fully entrust oneself to another. A choice to love God must begin outside of Heaven.

So, God created the Universe and the people in it. He placed Adam and Eve in a beautiful garden and was their best friend. Sounds great right? Well, in order for love to be a choice, God could not force them to love Him; it was against His goals to force them to do his bidding. He really wanted to let them stay in this beautiful garden where there was nothing they could do against Him at all and they would be happy, but He had to provide some way, an imperfection, for them to defy Him if they chose to do so, so He established the rule that the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden was not to be eaten. He then allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve into eating the fruit because it still wouldn't have counted if only one of the choices (that of loving and obeying God) looked worth pursuing. Of course He knew what they would do, but He had a much larger plan. Still, I bet it was very painful to Him to have Adam and Eve have to go through that.

Fast forward a bit; we're still in the Old Testament. God established some rules for the Jews to obey, and some means to purify themselves of their sins should they need to do so, as man must be pure from sin in order to commune with God (continue to keep in mind that this is what God's ultimate goal is, for us to love him and commune with Him in love). This is the period where God allowed mankind to try to be righteous by themselves given the means to do it. He knew they would fail, but without this hard proof, there would be no accepting what He would eventually be offering.

Eventually, God said "Enough!" and sent Jesus Christ to offer His ultimate solution. Jesus offered a "new" plan to us (which God was actually planning even from the very beginning). Jesus sacrificed himself for our purification so that God's will could be fully accomplished. All those who will it can now easily be purified so that they may enter the presence of God and commune with Him in love. Those who love God are eventually allowed to enter Heaven. Those who do not love God can't enter Heaven, thus must be sent somewhere else, namely Hell. God does not want to punish people, but Hell is a place that is apart from God because sin cannot enter the presence of God. It being apart from God, it just can't be a very pleasant place.

Excellent summary Jake!!! I agree with everything you said.


EDIT Whoops sorry Jake