Show Summary, From Chris and Nate

[Scotsman]

Ok - so i realise i'm a litle late inthe game. But i enjoyed readig through the discussions; and of course there has been much i've agreed with as well as much i've thought wasn't well thought through thinking.

First off - i know that we claim we don't like to pigeon-hole folks yet we really do. So you can pigeon-hole me as a fairly middle of the road Bible-believing Christian who's degree was in Evolutionary ecology & behaviour.

I might wish to make about 79 points that are in my head - but i reckon folks would just scroll through. Here's my main thoughts....

Some Christians have put forward the idea that God might create the earth in such a way that although it is only 6000 (or 'young') it would appear 'old' (4bill yrs ish); by adding in some fun fossils and wierdo carbon atoms etc for us to play with in science labs. Question - why would God do that? (Answer - no reason; and don't give the cop-out answer of God's thoughts are far above our thoughts -sure i agree with that; but on this one i think God would say - No - mate, your thoughts are far more way-out than mine!) Additionally, surely if God did do this then he would be trying to trick us into thinking the earth was older than it is. I don't believe in a God who tries to deceive mankind.

Second point..... Evolution. C'mon guys. For those of you who still think it's some kind of tentative theory that only has a few bits of evidence going for it then you are exceedingly mis-informed. As a scientist i'm exasperated by Christians who dismiss evolution without even understanding what it is. Evolution is merely the changing of gene frequencies in the gene pool of a population (it doesn't even need to lead to speciation.) And it's happening all around us all the time and there are loads and loads of examples. Mankind has been doing his own artificial evolution for centuries - go look at a dog and an ear of corn. So lets dump any crazy notions that Evolution is not happening.

Lastly (so much for the short rant eh?) - I'm also exasperated by scientists who dismiss the bible because it doesn't explain how new species are formed. (admittedly there has only been a little of this on this website). The bible gives us why's etc of creation.

So i see absolutely no contradiction in recognising a creator God who is the source of everything and continues to be omnipotent over his creation; and having species being formed through the force of Natural Selection. god created this force in the same way he created gravity (and we don't understand how that one works either really....ok need to avoid tangent).

YOurs - SCOTSMAN

[skeptic griggsy]

But you rely on teleology, goals and purposes, whereas natural selection has none.Science reveals no goals and purposes. It begs the question to aver that there are any.
There was no plan for us. That would beg the question of assuming God had us in mind.
To try to conflate the two is to commit a contradiction: there are and are not goals and purposes in evolution.That is the new Omphalos arguement that in effect God deceives us with selection as a force in its own right while it is just His patsy.No. Natural selection does the selecting mindlessly, not needing mind to do so.
To obviate this contradiction, theists beg the question by calling for a two category classification of origns[ science] or contingency and creation[teleology] or necessary being.
Yes, the bane does indeed show itself so much in theistic reasonging!